EPISODE 1

[EPISODE]

[00:00:00] J: This podcast is not training or supervision. This is an invitation to delve into these really big topics. When we are talking about clients, please know it is not you. It is a weaving together of stories that come up over and over again. 

With Edge of the Couch, we are here to create a space to delve into the topics that were either shied away from or dismissed because they were too big, too nuanced, too risky or too uncomfortable to discuss in school or even supervision. We are two passionate therapists sharing our personal opinions about the therapeutic process. 

[00:00:41] J: Hi, everybody. I'm Jordan.

A: And I'm Allison. 

J: And this is Edge of the Couch podcast, and today we are talking about imposter syndrome, which is such a common experience as a new clinician.

A: Totally. So if you are a current student or a brand new therapist, you might know what we're talking about and might really relate to a bunch of this. But we're excited to get into it. 

J: How do you define imposter syndrome yourself? We can talk about this beforehand, but –

Okay. How about this? I think that there's an idea about what a therapist should be, should look like –

A: Yeah, to feel like inside. Have an internal experience of. Yeah.

J: Yeah, feeling of being a therapist. Like, “Oh, I'm being a good therapist and I know how to do it.” And imposter syndrome is usually you have thoughts like, “I'm not a therapist. People think that I'm a therapist but I'm actually an imposter and I'm terrible at this.” There's a lot of self-doubt.

[00:01:40] A:I think imposter syndrome, there can be a sense of like I'm going to be found out. Eventually people are going to realize that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not meant to be here if it's in a training program. My clients are going to realize I know a lot less than they think I do. So there's kind of a teetering on an edge of like, “Oh no! Will people find out one day? Will they realize?” That type of energy.

J: Some of the things that I think feed into that are if we've had experiences maybe even all the way back in childhood you know where we have this instilled fear of failure. Like maybe we were severely criticized and that it was unsafe to do anything to make mistakes. So this desire to be perfect, pressure to always get it right, and just the sense of let's say you are a person of color and your knowledge and skills are dismissed and devalued in all kinds of contexts. Like it would make sense that it would come out in this therapist context as well.

[00:02:35] A: Totally. I think comparison can also be a thing that feeds into imposter syndrome, and I would say it actually feels correlated. I mean, maybe everything is connected to social media, but there are these therapists out there who seem to just be so full of wisdom and seem to have a lot going for them. Maybe you're comparing yourself to people at your practicum site if you're a student who like are talking about all this great work that they're doing or they're seeing way more clients than you. And if you're in the field sometimes it can be easy to compare to like the therapists whose practice are full or who are really prominently known. Like I think about some big practices in Vancouver that are very well known. And if you compare, and if you graduated around the same time as that person or you entered the field at a similar time and you compare where you're at to that, it can feel like, “Oh shit! I'm not doing the like business growth stuff that makes me feel like I'm not doing enough or I'm not a therapist in that way and that there's something wrong with that.”

J: Right. So there's some business stuff around that too. I'm thinking like I just – When you said that I'm like, “I compare myself to Esther Perel.” Listen to her podcast, Where Should We Begin? Or just trainings that I've seen her in and just like, “Wow! She's so wise.” She does that empathy work, but she also does a lot of like imparting wisdom and just saying things with such specificity, with such precision and I'm just like, “Oh! I aspire to be like that.” And so, yeah, she's one of the people that I totally compare myself to.

A: Yeah. And I think the reason I laughed at that is because, of course, she's gotten to the place of being so precise because she's been in the field for as long as she has. She does trainings, but it is almost like that's a great example, because you do incredible work. But it doesn't matter where we are kind of on the spectrum of that. There's always a sense of – There can at least be a sense of comparison still and it can be helpful to kind of zoom in and just come into our own sphere of like, “Wait, here's the work that I'm doing and it's good too.” It's not that. It's not Esther Perel. I'm not running trainings. I'm not like one of the most prominent therapists on the planet, but I'm still doing good stuff.

J: Yeah. Well, I mean, like her clinical skills are just so amazing. 

A: Honed. Yes. 

[00:04:53] J: But that also makes me think about the concept of bright shadow, which is sort of a jungian perspective even though that's not where I typically come from in my theory. But the concept of bright shadow is how we can project on to other people our stuff, and when we have rage or, I don't know, disgust. Often it's our own parts of us that we haven't claimed that we see in other people and find that have these strong responses to. The concept of bright shadow is when we project our own unclaimed intelligences and gifts. 

So I would be curious if there's somebody that you're comparing yourself to or something that you really admire in someone, specifically what do you admire? Like zero down into that. And what parts of you may you not be looking at that you actually do have within you.

[00:05:55] A: So interesting. Love that as a concept to think about. I feel like in my own practice it wasn't so much comparison, because I tend not to do that super often. I kind of know I exist in my own little sphere. But instead, I found imposter syndrome creep up when I actually started mastering some skills in therapy. Because as I was mastering it, I couldn't trace back to where I had learned that stuff and it made me feel like I was just making shit up. I can actually remember the acute moment I had. I had a client. Was a very unique client presentation that I hadn't seen before. I work in a small town. So I often couldn't refer client. I still can't refer clients around to other people because there aren't specialists and like niche therapists. And so I took on this client knowing full well and explaining to them, “We're going to do our best here, but I don't have any training in this.” And giving them this like homework exercise that I felt like I completely made up and then having them come back and talk about how it works so well for them. And it made me feel like a complete imposter. 

I remember I needed supervision around it like I was like, “I made that up.” Like it went well, but it could have completely bombed. And my supervisor at the time, who is incredible. I mean, she's still my supervisor. She introduced me to this thing that I didn't know about. I think some other people know about it. I've seen people write about it, but I’m going to bring it up here. It has a name. I don't know it. I apologize in advance. 

J: Dunning-Krueger effect.

A: There you go. Is that what it is?

J: I think. I think that's what you're going to talk about. Sorry. 

A: That's okay. The one about how when you first begin training you don't know what you don't know. That one. Yeah. So you like go into becoming a therapist. You have no idea what there is to learn. You just don't know it. And then you get into it and then you realize all the stuff you don't know. You're like, “Wow! There's so much to learn and it's daunting, and I don't know very much in the grand scheme of all these things.” Then you learn skills and you realize what you do know and you have kind of this like basket of like, “Okay, these are the things I can do. I know how to do these 12 skills. Those are the ones I cycle through with clients.”

And then as you begin to work and as you begin to master, you don't even realize all the stuff that you know. And so as the words come out of your mouth or as you're having these experiences with clients, it can feel kind of unsettling because you're like, “Where did that come from? How did I get to this?” And it made me feel like an imposter. But I was able, through supervision, thankfully, to work through those feelings of like, “Oh! This is actually just mastery.” And I didn't know what that felt like I hadn't gotten there yet.

[00:08:30] J: Yeah. It also makes me think about Scott D. Miller's work, who is a therapist, I believe, and a researcher. And he does a lot of work on doing assessments as to whether therapy is effective.

A: Outcome measurements.

J: Yeah, outcome measurements. And he did some research on when therapists plateau, when they stop. Sort of get to a certain point of skill and level out in terms of getting better and better. And it was at 50 hours of client work. 

A: So soon.

J: And that is early, early, early on. And so that's when here, the work that you're doing as therapists, as beginner therapists, even just listening to this podcast means that you care about your work. And so one thing he talked about that I remember from one of the conferences is looking at all these different moments. Looking at all these different moments and really attending to them. Like walking with a client down the hall, like what's the best way of connecting with them in those moments, because that is a relational moment that counts. And on the flip side, being a good enough therapist is really just focusing on the relationship. Like as long as you keep going back to the relationship, you're probably doing okay enough work. 

[00:09:52] A: I think that's so true that imposter syndrome is exacerbated by the desire to fix or change what is happening to our client. So when a client comes in and there's something we can't give them a skill for or we can't change it for them, which is frankly a lot of the time with clients. I mean, clients will come in with grief or they'll be talking about how stressful it is that they are struggling with money. There's no skill that you can teach that client. The only thing we can do is create space for them. And so when we stop trying to fix or change for the client and we concentrate instead on how can I show up and be present in a relationship with this person. I think we give less fuel to imposter syndrome, because showing up as yourself relationally is never you being an imposter. Pretending to know how to fix things or hoping desperately that you know how to fix things for your client kind of is imposter-y.

J: And I think that's a larger systemic problem with the idea of – Like this individualist idea that it's about a failure of the individual. “It's because they're depressed that they are having money struggles” or something like that has been individualized into what happens in therapy. And as a therapist in those moments where there's something that I cannot change like grief. 

A: Yeah, you can't change that.

J: Or even just like something in their family system that is completely outside of their control. I say, “I wish that I could change these things for you.” Or even just talking about their partner, “Oh, I wish my partner did this. I wish my partner did that.” But just saying, “I wish that we change them to be these certain ways.” And you're here with me in individual therapy where our focus is really about changing the way that you approach things, making space for how you feel. To be able to name the limitations of therapy I think help us to not take them on as our own limitations as like being a poor therapist.

[00:11:58] A: And if we don't have to bear it, then it doesn't contribute to our sense of being an imposter. You're absolutely right, yeah. This is why we created the podcast, because we want to bring to light and give air space to these things that are so unspoken in the world of therapy. And an interesting experience, it's like I think every grad student in a psych program knows what imposter syndrome is, but I don't know if everyone is talking about feeling like an imposter or not. So it's there. We know it's a phenomena, we know what's happening to everyone, but there aren't a lot of therapists out there who are talking about it in real time as therapists. And so we want to bring these things to light so that we can name what is actually happening behind the curtain for therapists, which is sometimes imposter syndrome. 

[00:12:37] J: And to work with it, right? Because I think that it is named by professors sometimes where they'll say, “You become a therapist by being a therapist. Like you just have to be thrown into the deep end and you'll find your way,” which is actually true in some ways that you can read all the textbooks and the role playing and thinking through things deeply and it's not until you're sitting with another human being and responding to them in real time that you can learn to be effective. That's what's so confusing. You have to be a therapist in order to learn to be a therapist. 

And for so much of that time we might feel like not good enough. Again, that could be from earlier experiences. It could be, I don't know, what's “professional” versus what's unprofessional and how are we measuring up in terms of that vision of what “professional" is. 

A: Oh, totally. What were some of the messages that you got in your training programs? I mean, I have the unique perspective of being in a training program again doing my doctorate. But do you remember when you were doing your master's what some of the messages about what a professional therapist looks like?

[00:13:54] J: Well, I mean I'm thinking about SOLER. 

A: Oh my God! SOLER. 

J: Sitting, Open, Leaning, Eye contact, Relaxed. That's what it is. And I can understand the purpose of that especially when you are a beginner therapist. Just to be aware of how you are, your body is in space. But when you are having to move differently, sound differently, dress differently than you normally do in order to be “professional”, of course you're going to feel like an imposter because this is not how I move through the world and you're telling me that I need to open my legs and lean forward and then somehow look relaxed?

A: And be trying to consciously pay attention to what is happening to your body the whole time you're listening to a person.

J: Which when you practice SOLER, if you're a student, when you practice SOLER, it really is like this – I can't even pay attention to have empathy with this person in front of me because I'm just like, “Am I leaning? Am I open? Am I – Oh no.”

A: Do I look relaxed?

J: I put one arm over another. Now I'm closed.

A: Oh my gosh! 

J: And we would have videos and they would point it out like, “Oh, you're leaning backwards there.” Which is, again, it's important to know where your body is in space, and when that's not how you normally move and it just feels so unnatural to you, of course you're going to feel like an imposter. 

[00:15:12] A: Also, just imagining – Okay, two things are coming up for me. One, imagining myself sitting in SOLER makes me laugh so hard because the day I graduated, my masters, was the last day of my life I ever did SOLER. It is the most artificial, to me, sense of showing up ever. I cross my legs. I take off my slippers. I put my hands where they feel comfortable. I show up with a real human being on a robot. But also the idea of sitting across from someone doing SOLER and watching SOLER. Just like, “Wow!” 

It also took me back to a memory that I just like literally popped into my head, being in my master's practicum. You remember in seminar, Jordan, we had to show a clip of a time that we thought we were doing good therapy in a clip of a time where we thought we maybe could have done better. And the clip that I showed – You were in my seminar class.

J: I know, but I don't remember that exercise.

A: Oh, you don't?

J: No. 

[00:16:45] A: That's what it was like.  You showed a clip where you thought you did really well and then a clip where you thought you could improve. And the clip that I thought where I can prove, the client started crying and I had to get up from the chair and grab the tissues and bring them back and I thought that was unprofessional. And my teacher thankfully was like, “That's totally normal.” But, now sometimes I'll be like, “Oh, shoot! I'm –” Well, when I was seeing clients face-to-face. Like I'm totally out of Kleenex. Let me go grab them. I have to like walk down the hall – There's so much more humanness now. But yeah, that, definitely SOLER and like how you show up in the space. I think there's a lot of messaging. How you dress. We're going to do a whole episode about how you dress, but I think there's weird messaging around how you dress as a therapist.

J: Which again is related to economic stuff. Also, like trying to project. Having certain wealth.

A: I think it also comes from years of the therapist presuming to be the expert. When you think about Freud and Jung and Adler doing therapy, they were doctors who showed up in suits, like full suits and like leather shoes and – 

J: Can you imagine? So uncomfortable.

A: So uncomfortable.

J: Meanwhile, the room is like filled with smoke.

[00:17:24] A: Totally. Totally. It's just like – And Freud's high on cocaine just like doing therapy sessions. So professionally dressed though. So it's fine. It makes me think, and I mean I know we're going to do a whole session about what to dress. But I had an experience recently that I think if I had been a newer therapist would have absolutely made me feel like an imposter, which was being at an event was very recently after I restarted my doctorate. I was back at the university that I did my masters in. Now beginning my doctorate program, and some faculty and staff were kind of walking around and introducing themselves. And one of the professors came over to me and, “Who are you?” and blah-blah-blah. And I was talking about my practice and telling how I transitioned to fully virtual. Anyway, they were giving me – Talking about it a little bit. And then I said, “Yeah, and like the benefit of virtual counseling is like I get to wear pajama pants the whole time.” And he deadass turned around looked me in the eyes and said, “That's unethical.”

J: I cannot. 

A: And I laughed so hard. I just was like, “Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!” because I could not believe. I just looked, like in my head – I mean, thankfully, I'm was so secure at that point in my ability as a therapist and whatever, but just to be like, “No, it's not.” It's not unethical to wear pajama pants if your client can't see them. It doesn't make you an imposter to want to be comfortable in your own home.

J: Also unethical how?

A: Unethical how is a great question. But here, these messaging around like that's not how therapists show up. That's not how we do that here. In that case, it was so overt, but I think it can be very covert that there's like subtle messaging around. And if we don't fit that mold, kind of two things can happen pre-meeting is like either you show up in a way that feels authentic to you but you feel like an imposter in the field, or you show up in a way that aligns with what the field wants from you and you feel like an imposter in yourself. Oy!

[00:19:20] J: Yeah. When we're asked to move differently, sound differently, dress differently. I'm also thinking about hairstyles, getting your nails done. There were times in which, “Oh, you're supposed to have clean nails.” But then I had like funky nail polish and I remember thinking like, “Should I take this off before I go?” Like it’s so – therapist with tattoos. Like I think that the field is moving in different directions and it also depends on your client base, and yet showing up authentically in a way that feels grounded to you is super important.

A: The least impostor-y thing you can do, because there is no way that a therapist should look. But if we're in a training program, the messaging might still be there in some way, for sure. What is professional? What are some other things? 

[00:20:20] J: So much of this, so much of how we are supposed to show up are related to race and class and gender expression. The idea that we need to be white cis middle class in order to be a “professional”. When we talk about professionalism, it is a bit of coded language. We need people who present differently. We need people who are able to show up for clients that look like them, sound like them. Being able to represent that in the way that you talk, the way that you dress, the way that you move. This is really important for some clients to feel safe enough. For me, it helps to remember that sometimes we feel like an imposter because I know that I experience this when I had to do a – I mean we both had to do this, a workshop for parents about parenting, and I was not a parent.

A: No one came to mine. Did anyone come into yours?

J: Yeah, it was four in elementary school and there were quite a few people actually. 

A: Wow! No one, not one single person came to mind. We had to like hustle people, friends to come and watch us. But anyway, go on.

J: That's a bit of a relief. I imagine that was a bit of relief. 

A: That’s a good point. 

J: And I understand, I think some of it around the imposter syndrome stuff comes with life experiences. For me, like now being a parent, I would feel less impostery in giving a parenting talk to a bunch of parents, which is a bit connected to age. But now always – I started being a therapist when I was 24. 

A: Before we recorded, and you said that. So did I. And it seems so shocking. I mean, it's just how it works. But like 24? I was an enfant at 24. 

J: Yeah, and I felt really self-conscious about my age. And now that I'm in my 30s, I don't feel that anymore. But looking back I'm kind of like, “Oh, understandably so, a bit.” 

A: Totally.

J: But I can understand why some of my clients in their 50s would look at me and go, “I don't know if you can relate to me.”

A: And did you ever have a client say that? Because I had clients straight up say that to me.

J: Oh, yeah. And I had to grapple with, “Okay, how do I respond to this?” Especially when I also don't feel like this. How do I sit with somebody who's experienced loss when I haven't had anyone close to me die? 

[00:20:49] A: Totally, and this is where I think it's so beneficial to circle back to like what is my purpose here as this person's therapist. My purpose is not to necessarily get every single thing that they say, because even if I had lost someone we might have a completely different experience of that thing. My goal is simply to show up, be present, connect as two people. And if they name to me, “You can't get this because you've never lost anyone.” I'm going to say, “Yes, that is true.” But what I can get is what it is like for me to be present with you here right now hearing your pain and seeing your pain. 

[00:22:20] J: And in that sense I don't have the same imposter syndrome around that anymore. It used to really be is this out of my depth for somebody to have this other experience? And I think part of that is the idea that we should be the experts. And knowing now – I mean, I knew then. But really being grounded in the fact that I am not the expert of their lives. 

A: Absolutely. Yes.

J: I bring my schooling, my experiences, my empathy, but we just met. We just have spent, I don't know, five hours together. I can't read your mind. I don't know you better than you know yourself. And the idea that I don't have to give these huge nuggets of wisdom to them in order to be a good therapist, which I see in my supervisees, like this pressure. Like, “Oh, being an expert, being a good therapist means being able to make these connections and give it back to them.”

A: Totally. Like really wanting to say the perfect thing that the client's going to go, “Oh my God!” which when it does happen makes you feel amazing, but happens so rarely. Really, it's not the biggest experience that clients have in therapy, I don't think.

J: It helps to remember that I'm not the expert of their life. I bring my schooling, my experiences, my empathy, but I don't have to know everything. The relationship is more important. Clients won't hear us no matter how wise what we say is if they're not in a place to – Like if it doesn't make sense to them. 

A: Totally. They're not there yet maybe. 

J: Yeah. For us it can be like, “Whoa! I see this connection.” And for them they might be like, “Yeah, I see the connection, but it's not in this grounded sense of, “Okay, it really fits together like these puzzle pieces,” and it can be months and months later where they will be like, “Ah, look at this. Like this fits with this and I can understand this now.” And there's sort of this internal little dialogue that I have with myself like, “Ooh, I said that to you like six months ago.” 

A: Those moments are hilarious. 

J: A little bit frustrated with myself too, like, “Did I not say it in the right way?” And it's like, “Okay.” It's not about the super wise things that you say even though those moments can be great. It is about how you're bringing them in connection with themselves and how you're bringing them in connection with you. 

J: And that is how we shirk imposter syndrome by going, “If the goal is actually for me just to show up as myself maybe with unprofessional hair, an unprofessional posture, an unprofessional whatever. I got tattoos on my arms or whatever.” If the actual goal is just to show up as me and be present and I don't have to say things that are full of wisdom. I don't have to solve every problem. And the client is still going to have an amazing experience and feel changed by that, then the you showing up as yourself is the therapy and you show up as yourself is you never being an imposter. 

[00:25:15] J: I have a caveat. It is that if you are somebody who has challenges showing up as yourself in relationship. 

A: In general, any relationship.

J: In general, in other relationships. If you're somebody who has that idea of sort of a veneer of who you think you should be, this perfectionism, taking on the role. This is our stuff. This is my stuff. And how do I show up as myself in relation to this person in this role? So if we're inviting them to share more of themselves in our work and to connect deeper with themselves, we also have to do our own work so that we can show up authentically as ourselves. Because if we're experiencing that sort of block, we need to do work on that, because that's something that is going to come across in the therapy room whether you're 100% aware of it or not.

A: And it makes me think about in this doctorate program that I'm in, this thing has been said so many times and I don't live it. And so I find it really interesting. Our teachers have said to us – My cohorts so many times, “Well, I bet most of you are perfectionists. Anyway, we're all perfectionists here,” and like I'm not a perfectionist. I am so okay with the good enough product. And that's really interesting because I didn't realize how many other therapists are perfectionists. But yeah, I guess I didn't realize how much, how pervasive perfectionism is in therapy.

J: Yeah. And to me, perfectionism – I know I use the word perfectionist. But to me it's more this: how do I show up authentically in relationships? And so that's not about being perfect as much as it is when does it feel safe enough? How does it feel safe enough for me in these other relationships in my life to really bring more and more parts of myself into the relationship and feel, it's safe enough. To feel further connected, to feel like you don't have to put up a friend. The idea that the safer that we feel, the more we're able to bring more parts of ourselves that we may have cut off or just disregarded into the relationship to be vulnerable and that, yeah, it's less about perfection and more about authenticity. And then we can spiral in this as you know, “Who am I? Who am I?” Maybe you're a student therapist and being like, “Okay, I put on my pantsuit and I'm doing SOLER. And now I'm this therapist and I've lost some touch with myself. And maybe there is that imposter syndrome of like “I don't feel like myself. I feel disconnected. This is a mask that I'm putting on” and I'm further into my work realizing like, “Oh, my work is actually how to take this mask off so that I can show up more fully with my clients.” So that's one way that I think it might show up for newer therapists who are listening.

A: And I think that – for me, the first couple of years of being a solo practitioner was a lot of figuring that out. This is what I feel best. These are the types of clients I feel really confident in working with. These are the skills that I know I have. I think it can take a year or two when you're out there doing your own thing before you. Honestly, when we talk about Scott Miller, my biggest fear is plateauing as a therapist. So that like scares the shit out of me. But I do think it can take a little bit of time, because we come out of a training program with SOLER in our back and like how to be professional and we've probably learned CBT and DBT and all of the ‘BTs. And then we have to get out there, be with real people, doing the clinical work on our own kind of and then I think we begin to shed what doesn't work for us and step into an empowered place of what does work for us. So even if you feel like an imposter right now, if you're listening to this, that might not always be there. 

J: Especially if you're doing your own work around self-doubt and I mean, I agree with you. I have this lifelong career mindset, and I really hope – when you talk about 2015, I hope in 2025 that I'm also not doing the same work as I do now and that I have continued to grow. And part of that also is when I talk about our own life experiences, we are in a different place from when we're 24 to when we're 34 to when we're 44 to when we’re 54. 

A: Oh my gosh! Yes!

J: And that we will show up differently both like we're different, our clients are different and – 

A: The world is different.

J: Like having that dynamic and continuing to do our work as we move through these adult developmental stages I think is also what – And showing up in therapy authentically is a way that we will continue to grow. I also want to be somebody who continues to do training for myself.

A: Very important.

[00:29:40] J: I guess you said this a little bit, but tell me a little bit how you experience that change or maybe feeling what imposter syndrome looked like for you. You said that not really. You didn't experience it very much. 

A: Well, not as not as a student. Not as a student. I didn't feel it very much. But I felt it as I began to do clinical work on my own. How did it begin to change? There's almost an indescribable felt sense that can happen in the clinical space inside you as a therapist or at least it did to me when I was doing something that didn't feel congruent with who I am, how I show up. It's so intangible. I'm not even sure how to describe it, but like sometimes that session would end and I would go, “Ugh!” inside myself. Like that isn't how I want to do therapy. And that was coming from a place of very much comparing myself to other therapists who were doing therapy in those ways, which work for them, and that's the thing. If it works for you, do the thing that works for you.

An example of that was like I thought CBT was what I wanted to do or at least I wanted to be a part of it, and CBT is just not aligned with so much of how I do therapy. I'm not formulaic enough. I can't follow a protocol. I forget to give homework. And so it just doesn't suit me. But there was this time when I was really trying to do it in order to combat feeling like an imposter, I was trying to do this thing, and it just felt gross. And slowly over the span of time. It kind of started with like, “I offer CBT.” To like, “I do a version of CBT.” Like I would say to clients, “If you want true CBT, you're not going to get that from me.” And now it's I don't even talk about it. If I introduce clients to skills, I very rarely. I'm like, “This is cognitive behavioral therapy.” Instead I do it in a more conversational way. So I think there's evolution through stuff like that. But even just like I know that I show up in therapy very differently than some other therapists because it is me, Alison Margaret McCleary, who is in the room. There is no veneer of like I'm a therapist. And that's not true for all therapists. And again, do whatever feels right for you. But I think getting to a place where now I leave most sessions being 99.9% of sessions being like, “Yeah, that felt really good.” Even if the therapy, even if we didn't get to anything tangibly different, I feel congruent with who I am in those therapy sessions. I don't, it’s so hard to describe.

[00:32:00] J: I think also part of that is that you and I, we see our therapists selves as part of us. I think there are some therapists that really see therapy as a job. And for me it's easier to show up as myself knowing like I'm a therapist. That's part of who I am. It doesn't feel like me stepping out of my ways of being. 

A: Yes. Exactly right.

J: I’m stepping into my ways of being is being a therapist. 

A: There is really so little differentiation between who I am in any moment and who I am in therapy. I remember there was a time when I used to have a therapy voice. And I'm sure I still sometimes slip into it, but this is the voice I use to talk to my clients. Like I talk to them conversationally. I would have the same inflection or conversation if I was talking to someone at a coffee shop. So I don't end somewhere and therapist me begins personally. What about you? How did you notice like a shifting away from imposter syndrome?

J: To me it was very much – I mean, of course it probably happened more gradually, but it was really a mindset shift around that I'm not the expert. And even though that's my like theoretical orientation, it took some time for me to go like, “No, really. I bring my schooling.” And being able to be vulnerable enough to lay that on the table for people if they're sort of hinting at, “Oh, maybe I don't know if you've lost someone before and to be able to be open about this hasn't been my experience. This has been my experience,” or whatever it is about I bring my empathy. I like to say often in the beginning of establishing a relationship with somebody like a client that, “We just met. We just met, and I’m learning about you. And you know yourself better than I do.” And being able to sit in that, I think before I really thought I needed to, “Oh, if I have their history and I have – And I can get a feel for how they show up right now. Then somehow I'm supposed to have these nuggets of wisdom to give to them,” and that's just not the nature of our work, like learning that. But also it's not really impossible to have these accurate visions of somebody when you just met them. So it's that grounded sense of we are building a relationship. They know themselves better than I do and I bring what I bring and we get to figure this out together. 

[00:34:30] A: So, big question. Do you still actively experience imposter syndrome as a therapist?

J: Generally no. There are times in which there's a flavor of an imposter syndrome situation. One of them being I've had two kids. So both times I've come back to therapy work after parental leave. And so it's really hard to step back into it and it's scary to step back into it. I kept thinking leading up to starting, “Okay, can I still do this?” And within 20 minutes it's like, “Oh! Right, yeah. All right, yeah. I'm a good therapist.” And sometimes I'll come home from work and I'll tell my family, “I'm a good therapist,” like I forgot.

A: Yeah, and reflecting on my own experience of imposter syndrome. I don't feel that I experience it very often anymore. I certainly don't experience it in the school setting because I feel like I've been a student for 900 years. But I think I don't experience imposter syndrome because of that mindset because I reject the notions, these archaic notions of what a therapist is meant to be. I embrace that how I show up is how a therapist is meant to be if I'm doing it as a therapist. So there is mindshift and there's like an active rejection of some of the things that are being still taught in schools that I just come in one ear, out the other, because I'm like that's just not how I'm going to show up as a therapist. So I choose not to compare myself to those standards because I would feel like an imposter in comparison and I choose instead to stand in what feels like the power of how I show up. But that doesn't mean that I can't experience imposter syndrome again. I'm sure there are moments where it could rear its ugly head, but I guess I wanted us to end on this note of like we're not there anymore because I think there's hope. 

[00:36:15] If you're a new therapist or a student, like you are not always going to feel this way. There are going to be shifts and ebbs and flows and seasons of it, and presumably there will be a time when you feel pretty sure of what you are and how you show up. I really believe that. Allow imposter syndrome to be present. Have a relationship with it. Be curious about when you notice it most. When does it pop up? How do you respond to it? Do you over correct in response perhaps? Just get to know it. Like any feeling, just have a relationship with it and see it and allow it to be present, but don't allow it maybe to drive the car. What about you? 

J: I would say to new therapists and to student therapists to hold on to yourself, to do your work to connect with yourself. To critique the mental health field in terms of what is “professional” versus “unprofessional.” 

A: Oh my goodness! Yes.

J: I think when we can hold on to ourselves and the fields idea about what's professional and what's a good therapist it's not the end-all be-all of what the picture that you're supposed to measure up to and that there's value in pushing against that notion. 

A: Those are our types of people, Jordan, people pushing up against those notions. Yeah, those notions are our brand of folk, yeah.

J: That's probably why you're listening to this. Yeah, perfect. All right. Well, this was the Edge of the Couch podcast, and we will talk to you next time. 

A: See you next time. 

[OUTRO]

[00:37:55 A: Thanks for listening. We'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at connect@edgeofthecouch.com to tell us what you think, ask a question or let us know what type of episode you'd love to hear.  You can even send us a voice note for us to play in a future episode. 

A: You can support us by giving us a review on Apple Podcasts, sharing the show with a friend or supporting us on Patreon.

J: Join us next time at the Edge of the Couch. 

[END]