When you are a student therapist in a pandemic - Interview with Chloe Powell

[EPISODE]

[00:00:00] AM: This podcast is not training or supervision. This is an invitation to delve into these really big topics. When we are talking about clients, please know it is not you. It is a weaving together of stories that come up over and over again.

With Edge of the Couch, we are here to create a space to delve into the topics that were either shied away from or dismissed because they were too big, too nuanced, too risky or too uncomfortable to discuss in school or even supervision. We are two passionate therapists sharing our personal opinions about the therapeutic process. 

[00:00:41] JP: Hi, everybody. It’s Jordan Pickell.

[00:00:43] AM: And Alison McCleary.

[00:00:44] JP: And this is Edge of the Couch. Today, we have an interview. For some of our interviews this season, we are going to interview some student therapist, maybe some new therapists because Alison and I have been in the game for a bit. There is a unique experience of being a student right now.

[00:01:01] AM: In this interview, you are going to hear my friend, Chloe Powell. She is also my classmate. She’s just going to be sharing her experience of being a student therapist right now. I love this interview because she provides such great insight into what is actually like to be a brand-new student during a pandemic and just during the zeitgeist of the times.

[00:01:21] JP: One thing I really liked about the interview, Alison is the way that Chloe spoke to being in supervision, or being in class, and wanting to bring some of her politics and anti-oppressive lens and her hesitance, because the professor or the supervisor was the one evaluating her. I thought that that was such a good point.

[00:01:43] AM: I really think it’s an experience that so many students share as they begin practicum. They’re trying to figure out what type of therapist they want to be, but they’re also being assessed and evaluated by a supervisor.

[00:01:54] JP: I hope that our Edge of the Couch community can relate to this and think about what it’s like to be a new therapist or a student therapist in the pandemic and that what are some strategies being able to bring your politics into your work with the awareness that you’re being evaluated. So those are just some of the ways that you might pull Chloe’s experiences into your own work.

[00:02:18] AM: If this interview resonates, if you hear some of yourself in it, please let us know as always, send us an email or DM and please enjoy.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:35] AM: Hi, everyone. I am so excited today to share with you this very special person, who I think we’re going to have an amazing interview with. Today, I am interviewing Chloe Powell. she is a student currently in PsyD program. I should let you know, it’s the same one that I’m in, so we are peers. She has a really unique background, and she is joining us today to help us understand what it is like to be a student right now. She’s bringing the student perspective for what it is like to be training to be a therapist in this kind of cultural zeitgeist that we are experiencing and in the middle of the pandemic. She is my academic peer and my dear friend. Welcome, Chloe.

[00:03:20] CP: Hi, Alison. 

[00:03:22] AM: Thank you so much for agreeing to do this.

[00:03:24] CP: I’m so excited. I’ve been a little bit nervous but very excited also.

[00:03:31] AM: Yeah, that’s great. We welcome the nerves. Nerves are welcome here for sure. As I said in a little intro of you, you have a bit of a unique training and kind of early experiences. Having trained in a couple of different countries, worked in different countries. Could you just give us a little bit of background of your academic and professional life?

[00:03:53] CP: Sure. Yeah. So I’ve had a bit of nomadic thread throughout my whole life, probably because of my dad’s job and just moving around different places. But yeah, I was born in the states, but raised in the United Kingdom, in England. I got most of my education there, did my undergraduate degree in psychology at the University of Birmingham. Then pretty much as I graduated, I had a bit of, “Oh, no. What am I going to do next?” moment. My parents were living in the states, so I though why not I’ll go and get some experience there, so I did. 

I moved to Washington, DC and I worked in community mental health for going on just over three years actually. When I was in the states, I worked primarily on an assertive community treatment team or an ACT team, working with people with quite acute mental health expertise, primarily working with people who are homeless, and getting them housed, and doing intensive case management type stuff. Then from there, moved here to Canada and obviously doing this PsyD now. 

[00:05:04] AM: Yeah, that is a very good, very condensed [inaudible 00:05:07] note version. 

[00:05:08] CP: Yeah.

[00:05:10] AM: Maybe just a flash note a little bit. What was that experience like working in Washington, DC working with that specific population? How was that for you?

[00:05:20] CP: I mean, I look back now and I look back at it very fondly and I think it was an amazing learning experience, but it was definitely very tough. I think I’d just turned 21 when I moved.

[00:05:32] AM: Yeah, so young.

[00:05:33] CP: Yeah, I was very young and had lived a very sheltered life, right? I did experience a bit of culture shock and just like, “Whoa! This is the real America, right?” I worked in the jail system, I worked with people experiencing severe poverty. It was very eye-opening and particularly tough, had very tough days, where I’ve come home and just be like, “What is going on?” Feeling just heavy, but also very moving stuff as well.

[00:06:06] AM: Wow! I can bet that that would be profound.

[00:06:10] CP: Totally, yeah. I’m sure we’ll speak about this a little bit more, but it’s definitely helped me shape more of who I am now and also how I want to be practicing as a therapist in the future.

[00:06:22] AM: Yeah. How could it not, right? That that move is such a formative experience, that it would impact any future therapy of yours. 

[00:06:33] CP: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:06:34] AM: Okay. Here you are, you’re living in DC, it’s pretty intense, you’re doing some really intense work. Tell me about the decision to, first of all, to even apply to a PsyD program, and then also to move literally like across the content to Vancouver, BC. How did you come to that decision?

[00:06:49] CP: Yeah, it does sound pretty nuts actually when you say it like that. Like, “Whoa!” I mean there are lots of moving parts, right? So this was probably end of 2017 that I started to think that, “Okay, I’m not sure I want to be here anymore. What’s my game plan now?” I’ve known for a long time that I wanted to be a psychologist or work in the mental health field. My split-second decision to move to the states was a little impulsive, but also, I knew that I wanted to work in mental health and it could be a great opportunity to get experience. My partner was living in the states too, we did have a long-distance relationship and he is British, so wasn’t able to stay in the states long time and wanted to move to Canada, so that kind of played into the decision that I knew I probably would move to Canada.

But then, in terms of applying to PsyD program, I’m still not hugely familiar with the British system to be honest, but it’s gets harder become a psychologist to do a PhD if you want to practice clinically. I was sort of looking for an equivalent degree that would meet the requirements for me to be able to get registered if I ever want to go back home. Looking around, Vancouver looked pretty, it looked nice. 

[00:08:16] AM: It is a really pretty city.

[00:08:17] CP: Absolutely, yeah. It’s pretty here. Quite honestly, I was probably burnt out of my work and just really needed space to breathe, so I applied to a few different programs. I applied back home actually in the UK, didn’t really think I wanted to go back home, but it was an option, right? I actually didn’t get in to any of those ones, so [inaudible 00:08:43].

[00:08:45] AM: Yeah, made the decision really easy for you.

[00:08:47] CP: I was like, “Oh! Vancouver it is.” So I drove across North America with my mom, a car full of belongings and a golden retriever. It was stressful, but a deep sense of relief just crossing the border. I was like, “Whoa! Wow! I’m out of that space now.” Which yeah, there’s a a lot of feelings wrapped in there.

[00:09:14] AM: Sure. You talked a little bit about culture shock coming from the UK into the states, and I can imagine Washington, DC. I have never lived in a place — I mean, even as I watch shows about it, I feel overstimulated. What was it like to then go from DC to Vancouver? Was there a culture shock in that too?

[00:09:33] CP: Slightly, but it fit more with who I am and how I am as a person. DC for me and I’m sure there are lots of people that disagree with me, but I didn’t find it was a very friendly place. I found it really hard to make friends. I came from living with my best group of girlfriends in the UK, very university worth living to living with my parents again for a short amount of time, and then trying to make friends with, — there’s a lot of pressure of what you do rather than who are you. The first question that people ask is, “What do you do?” One of my good friends and I, we used to say that we made pizza at the Verizon Center, which is like where they hold gig, and concerts, and basketball games, and everything else. Just because I don’t care about what you do. Yeah, Vancouver, there’s a sense of a lot slower pace of life. There’s no sense of urgency here. 

[00:10:39] AM: Yeah, that’s very true.

[00:10:40] CP: It feels more homely to me. The climate is very similar to England, which is whether you like it or not, the rain is somewhat comforting for me.

[00:10:52] AM: Yeah, me too. 

[00:10:55] CP: Maybe there are definitely some differences in there, but for me, it felt, yeah, I was much more or I am still much more at home here than I ever felt in DC.

[00:11:05] AM: Yeah. I think about the impact that has on how we train, how we work, how we live. That if the place where we’re living feels very intense and pressure, how different our experience is of that place? Let me shift gears a little bit. You’re here now in Canada, you’re in a PsyD program. We started in September 2018 and then March 2020, we transitioned online due to the virus. Right now, we’re both kind of starring down the barrel of probably going to be a lot longer that we’re online. How has it been for you to receive such a large chunk of your training virtually?

[00:11:42] CP: March 2020 is not even a year ago, but it felt —

[00:11:44] AM: I know.

[00:11:45] CP: Whoa! Time is just so bizarre right now.

[00:11:48] AM: It is. Yeah. It really is.

[00:11:50] CP: At first, I found it very challenging. We have a lovely cohort.

[00:11:55] AM: We really do. Yeah, we’re very lucky.

[00:11:58] CP: We are. Just having that connection twice a week or whatever it was at in person is huge. Then going to online, where I live with my partner and my dog, but not really seeing anyone in person other than that, it poses some challenges, right? Most of the classes that we were taking were our therapy classes and some of that is so hard to do over just Zoom, role plays or —

[00:12:26] AM: Totally.

[00:12:27] CP: That poses challenges and just navigating and trying to keep engaged is difficult. I feel like I’m more distracted than ever.

[00:12:37] AM: Yeah. I was going to say, I feel like it’s so much easier to get distracted when you’re taking a class online. Because you see your cats doing something or you suddenly remember that you moved the wash over from the wash machine to the dryer and you want to get that done, and it’s really hard to have the boundary between real life and school life when school is happening in the middle of your real life.

[00:12:57] CP: Yes. Yeah, for sure and practicum too. I actually have been quite lucky that a part of my practicum, it isn’t anymore, but it was in person. I was running groups in person. But still, face is covered by masks, being two meters apart. Yeah, I’ve wondered at times during that process whether it would have been just better to be online, at least we could see each other spaces.

[00:13:28] AM: What makes you say that, where you phrase that was really interesting that you felt like to be able to get some in-face, in-person experience. What about that feels lucky?

[00:13:38] CP: Yeah. That’s a good question.

[00:13:40] AM: Thank you.

[00:13:42] CP: There’s a few pieces here. That the group that I was doing was quite intensive. It was six hours evening group therapy a week.

[00:13:50] AM: Six hours.

[00:13:52] CP: Yes.

[00:13:53] AM: A week.

[00:13:53] CP: Yes.

[00:13:54] AM: You were running it. Wow! That is a lot. 

[00:13:57] CP: Yeah. Two nights a week, they will split into three-hour chunks, intensive therapy, which meant that over the ten weeks that I did it, I felt good relationships with those clients. And seeing a progression in person was huge. You don’t get the observations that you do in person online, right?

[00:14:18] AM: Totally.

[00:14:18] CP: That was a big piece. I know a lot of the people that I’ve spoken to back home, and also our fellow cohort group members, they haven’t seen people in person.

[00:14:33] AM: Ever in their entire clinical experience, yeah/

[00:14:36] CP: That’s where the lucky piece comes from.

[00:14:38] AM: Totally.

[00:14:39] CP: Those definitely things that you miss online. Just the shift in energy.

[00:14:43] AM: Totally.

[00:14:45] CP: You don’t get that.

[00:14:49] AM: So you had an interesting experience. You were seeing some clients online at one site, you were seeing some clients face-to-face in this group at another site and you could then maybe compare those two experiences. Like, “Huh! This is what online feels like. This is what face-to-face feels like.” 

[00:15:01] CP: Yes. Especially for myself, just observing my own process. I was — well, I still am. I get so much more anxious and more apprehensive to the virtual clients.

[00:15:14] AM: Interesting.

[00:15:14] CP: Whereas I didn’t have that for the clients that I was seeing in person, and that I wonder and I’ve processed this myself. I’m trying to theorize why this is and part of it is, like you said, moving from my kitchen to the room I do therapy in, you don’t really have the time to sit back and process. “Right! Okay. I’m preparing myself to go in session.”

[00:15:37] AM: Totally. Yeah.

[00:15:38] CP: Whereas, driving downtown, playing something on the radio, drinking my tea or whatever it is, it’s preparing myself to move into a different space and feel those distinctions.

[00:15:50] AM: Totally. There’s almost ritual that exists in preparing for a face-to-face client that is hard when the ritual doesn’t exist in virtual. I know when I was seeing clients face-to-face, I always change my shoes, so I would never — there are like work shoes and home shoes, and I would come into work, and change my shoes and I’d be wearing my therapy shoes. There’s something even about the closing and locking the door, the turning off the lights, the wrapping up that feels so — the only word I can land on is ritualistic. And it feels at ending, at closing, it’s like, “Oh! That exists in there. The rest of my life exists out here.” We don’t really have that in virtual land with school or with clients.

[00:16:27] CP: Right. I might need to adapt that shoe thing or I need to get some fluffy slippers or something to wear.

[00:16:33] AM: I would wear slippers. To be fair, I stole it from my dear friend, Megan. So she’s listening. I give her full credit.

[00:16:40] CP: That’s awesome.

[00:16:41] AM: Yeah. Because she always changes shoes and I love it. It’s a great reminder of, I leave the work here, I leave the energy here and I take home my home energy. It can be really, really wonderful actually. 

[00:16:53] CP: Yeah. I wonder maybe — I’ve tried to adapt some rituals before, whether it’s going for a walk, or calling a friend, or calling my mom or whatever it might be before session. But if the timing isn’t right, then it’s hard to do that.

[00:17:08] AM: Yeah. Totally. Okay. So you’re in practicum now, you did an assessment practicum last year. But here it is, kind of your first therapy practicum. Just because so many of our listeners are also in similar experiences, Jordan and I are really curious to hear what have you noticed in yourself or maybe even in our cohort as a whole because you’re in it? You’re separate from it and you’re in it all the same time. But what do you think are some of the toughest topics to talk about in school settings with our professors or in the context of a potential supervisor? Are there general themes that’s like, “Oh! It’s a little bit scary to go there”?

[00:17:47] CP: Yeah. Oh gosh! There are so many. I will preface this, but I’ve been very fortunate with the supervisors that I’ve had. I know some people haven’t had the same —

[00:18:01] AM: I named individuals who had different experiences.

[00:18:05] CP: Yeah. I do feel very fortunate for that. Of course, yeah, there are still things I can be — I feel like I vibe really well with one of my supervisors and I do feel comfortable enough to bring most topics to the table. But yeah, there are things that I think that are challenging.

[00:18:22] AM: I mean, here’s a cliffhanger. Let’s dive in. What are those things?

[00:18:26] CP: The huge piece is politics, and just general system stuff that comes up. We’re living in a time which is really heavy with working through very politically polarized election, a racial justice movement, everything.

[00:18:47] AM: I mean, this week alone, we witnessed an attempted coup of the American government, only five days in the city that you used to live in, so that must have been so strange for you.

[00:18:58] CP: Gosh! There’s been so much that’s come up in the last year where I’ve been, “Wow! I feel so lucky that I no longer live there,” but, “Whoa! All these people that I used to work with, my clients are still there. They might never be able to move out of that space.” Yeah, that’s a lot that comes up there. But in times of bringing those topics to the table, I think there’s almost — well, I think we’ve actually been told at school that we can’t bring politics into the therapy room or you need to stay as neutral as possible. That is not my approach. I don’t think it ever will be. I don’t know how it could be. So that’s particularly challenging and I have had an instance where it came up. It was the week of the election in the group and it came up and it wasn’t spoken about in terms of my co-therapist moved on.

[00:20:01] AM: This space wasn’t created to let just — let people talk about it in and go there.

[00:20:05] CP: It wasn’t handled in a way that I think it should have been in my opinion, right? The space needed to be held, those are shift in energy. You could feel that it wasn’t just this one client that was experiencing this. I mean, I was experiencing it, but it was sort of just breezed over and move onto the next thing. For me, that separation of politics and mental health doesn’t exist.

[00:20:33] AM: Totally.

[00:20:35] CP: So where do we go from there if your supervisor thinks it does or we’ve been told in school that it does?

[00:20:42] AM: I’m so glad we’re naming this. I have got to imagine that so many of our listeners are having similar experiences, where the messages that we’re getting in school or even just the larger messaging of mental health in general is not at all reflected in the reality of what it’s like to sit with clients. And something that Jordan and I talk about a lot is how we as clinicians and student clinicians or whatever, we are all existing within a system that we also need to be highly critical of. This to me feels like a valid, valid criticism of the mental health field, which is try to remain neutral. No, there’s no neutrality when it comes to the mistreatment of people. There is no distinction between politics and mental health, because who is in power has a direct impact on the people getting services. Yeah, wow. I love that you brought that up.

[00:21:38] CP: Yeah. That’s the one that stands out to me as the one that I’m like, “Ugh!”

[00:21:43] AM: How do we even start a conversation with our teachers or with her supervisors about that? It’s so big and it’s scary to rock the boat.

[00:21:52] CP: Yeah. And when you’re being evaluated too, it’s this weird dynamic of, “Oh! That is something that means a lot to me, but at the same time, I know you’re evaluating me so am I going to rock the boat? I don’t know if I will.”

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[00:22:06] AM: Absolutely. I mean, supervisors have the am immense amount of power. There is a power differential that exist. Even the best ones, they still have — in our school I think and this make sense to me to some degree, to most of the degree as well, really reminds us of that. Like, “Hey! This person has to some degree your future in their hands based on what they write, what they say, whether they’ll give you a reference.” So there’s kind of this reminder of, “Ugh! Some things you can’t say to your supervisor.”

[00:22:37] CP: But with that, the other piece that comes up for me is, other system type issues. Let’s say, I’m seeing a client. I can only see them for eight sessions, and there’s all this heavy childhood experiences, relationships stuff that needs unpacking, but I’m not allowed for whatever reason to touch that stuff. I can only go here, and it feels very surfaced. I’m lacking the word of what I’m looking for there, but yeah, it feels very surfaced. How can I pass these issues apart if there’s all this going on in the background? It’s challenging.

[00:23:25] AM: Totally. I don’t know a student therapist whether in the master’s degree or now in the doctorate who has not have that experience, of what if it’s actually like when you’re doing approximate in agency or whatever the contract is for people to stay on this specific topic and how that is like agony sometimes. Okay. You want me to talk about — I don’t even know. Okay. This person is here because they got into a car accident, so we’re dealing with a car accident, but the car accident triggered reminders of like childhood sexual abuse. I get 12 sessions with them and you want me to talk about the car accident. But this person has never really been in therapy and needs actually long-term care, and balancing expectation in practicum, what you know would actually serve the client, not wanting to cause more harm, it is a very tricky situation to be in.

[00:24:17] CP: Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences, where the client is that to talk to me about, for example, needing to go back to work and all the barriers that are getting in the way of going back to work. But the client doesn’t really want to talk about that. They’re having difficulties with their children, or their relationship. Of course, that all plays into why they might be feeling challenged to go back to work. But yeah, it’s so difficult.

[00:24:43] AM: Yeah, these arbitrary distinctions that have been created is if we can talk to someone about driving anxiety, or going back to work, or healing from a concussion without talking to them about all the other stuff. The fact that we can imagine that there are distinct pieces of a pie chart, when there — that’s just not how mental health works or how like human beings work. It makes it really hard when the pressure from our supervisors or the program as a whole is, “Oh! Stay on track. Stay on topic.” That doesn’t actually — this is me saying this. I don’t know if you feel this way, but I often feel like, we are not serving the client. We are not giving them what they need here. We are managing over this one area and we’re sending them back into life with this other thing with festering still, and it’s hard to watch, hard to be a part of.

[00:25:33] CP: Yeah, for sure. In a way to either ease my own concerns with that or perhaps I am trying to help client too, but I’ve been trying to provide each client with additional resources when they’re on the merry way. With like, “Hey! Actually, this came up in a few sessions, maybe you could explore this.” And yeah, hopefully that helps, but it’s still such a difficult area too.

[00:26:01] AM: This is a thing too, again, like within the system, we want to change the system but it’s not up to individual therapist to change that system. The system needs to be torn down and we need to start again. Because as long as we have the types of contracting that we do and lack of government financing for mental health support, it’s going to continue to look like this. That’s just such a recipe for burnout.

[00:26:25] CP: Yes. Yeah. We’re experiencing these things. This is my first therapy practicum and I’m experiencing this.

[00:26:31] AM: Yeah. It wouldn’t take long.

[00:26:34] CP: Yeah. I mean, of course, I experience this too and I worked in community mental health, right? Everything is so reliant on resources, and funding and everything else. You can’t house a person experiencing homelessness if there is no housing.

[00:26:49] AM: Literally, yeah,

[00:26:51] CP: It creeps up everywhere for sure.

[00:26:53] AM: Yeah. It’s there and it’s infused in the — and for Canadians listening, I think we often turn our nose up with the Americans. “Ugh! Look at how terrible it all is.” You need to look in the mirror friend, because our systems are also horrible.

[00:27:07] CP: Yeah. It’s not better in the UK either and there’s a sense of superiority there as well. 

[00:27:13] AM: We need to get off our high horse and recognize advocacy mattered. Okay. You named that. Any other themes or things that are hard to talk about of we can move on to the next question? Totally up to you.

[00:27:25] CP: Perhaps it’s not something that’s hard to talk about, but just something that comes up is just a miss match and in modality, it’s treatment approaches with your supervisor. Just ways that their approaches to handle things and for me, or we’re tackling this in school right now, right, about CBT being the gold standard. For me, it is not my gold standard. Whereas, my supervisor comes from that background and there’s definitely sometimes where I’m like, “Oh! I wouldn’t have gone that way. I wouldn’t have handled it that way, but you would like me to handle the client in this way, so I’ll try it out” but still thinking in the back of my mind like, “I don’t like this.

[00:28:09] AM: This ain’t it. This ain’t it. Man! There’s always a part of me that goes like, we have to experience it to know what we hate to some degree.” I mean, although I think a lot of people are introduced for example to CBT and go, “I don’t think I’m going to love that, but there is something about — for all of our listeners and anyone who’s been a student therapist, like there’s so much about trying things out and really listening to your body as you’re in the work. You know what’s really interesting, Chloe. I don’t know if this is actually true, so remind me if this isn’t true. But when we first met, you were pretty drawn to like assessment and more of the CBT side of things.

[00:28:47] CP: Oh yeah.

[00:28:48] AM: Then in the work have come to realized it’s not for you,

[00:28:51] CP: Yeah. Honestly, I was like, “I’m never going to do therapy. I don’t like therapy. All this feeling stuff, ew!” Now, I’m like, “Oh, I love therapy.” 

[00:29:04] AM: Yeah, and it didn’t take very long. It was kind of a short transition for you from, “I want to work this way” to “Oh, just kidding.”

[00:29:09] CP: Yeah. It’s the report, the assessments put me off. 

[00:29:14] AM: Understandable and horrible.

[00:29:17] CP: It is horrible. But also, I just — the real work and the real buzz that I get from therapy is just miles better than anything that I’ve ever got from doing some assessments. So yeah.

[00:29:30] AM: You’re listening to your body and you’re honoring what it’s telling to you. Like the buzz is data for you to use. I love that. 

[00:29:37] CP: Yeah. It’s great. I find myself just being like, “Everyone should go to therapy, therapy is great.” 

[00:29:48] AM: Yeah. Has it changed — if you don’t feel comfortable, you don’t have to answer. But has it change your relationship with therapy, your personal therapy at all?

[00:29:54] CP: Oh, yeah! I had never been to therapy until this year, 2020. I took the jump because, where is this resistance coming from? I’m going to be a therapist, I need to learn about myself and know why certain things come up for me and everything else, and just to be a better therapist, I think. It was so important for me to do that work. So yeah. 

[00:30:18] AM: Love that, and thanks for sharing. Again, if you’re a listener, and you’re becoming a therapist, and you haven’t yet started your own therapy journey, this is a gentle invitation to do so because it really can be amazing for you and for how you show up for your clients.

[00:30:34] CP: Yeah. I just look at it now as me time, uninterrupted time to talk about me.

[00:30:41] AM: Totally. And who doesn’t love talking about themselves?

[00:30:44] CP: Oh, boy! It’s fun.

[00:30:45] AM: I do love talking about myself.

[00:30:47] CP: Me too. There you go.

[00:30:50] AM: Okay. To switch it up a little bit. You’re in therapy now, you’re in the therapy experience of being a therapist. What have been like the best, maybe the most challenging or the most surprising moment in your therapy work so far?

[00:31:04] CP: In terms of challenging, those — 

[00:31:07] AM: That’s always the easiest one to start with, isn’t it?

[00:31:09] CP: Yeah. The first few weeks of practicum, so back in September. Oh boy! I was so anxious, physically nauseous. Imposter syndrome was wearing its hat big time. I think it’s Brené Brown that says, “The fucking first time.” The FFT.

[00:31:27] AM: Yes, it is her.

[00:31:29] CP: Oh my gosh! I was really feeling it, and I know that I am a perfectionist and I’m sure I’m not the only person that’s in grad school that’s a perfectionist. But just the intense pressure of just thinking that I needed to walk into those sessions and be this all-knowing, all-powerful, life-changing therapist.

[00:31:56] AM: Totally.

[00:31:57] CP: Then realizing, “Oh! Actually, I don’t need to do that” has been both challenging and also such a surprising moment for me to collect in my head that I don’t need to be.

[00:32:08] AM: I mean, thank you for sharing that because I think that is an experience so many of us have or have had. That only four months later, you’re not feeling that same amount of pressure or the imposter syndrome, which is amazing.

[00:32:22] CP: Yeah. One of the ways that I try to ease anxiety for myself was, I looked back in the time that when I first moved to the states and started that work, and I felt the same way. Why am I here? I don’t know what I’m doing. It took I think three months for things to kind of just calm down and feel like, “Okay. I do know what I’m doing. I’m okay. This is going to be okay.” So giving myself that space was really important, and that’s not to say I don’t get moments where I’m like, “I don’t know what I’m doing.”

[00:32:53] AM: Sure, yeah. All of us have those moments, yeah.

[00:32:56] CP: Yeah. I still get that. But realizing that I don’t need to be perfect has been huge.

[00:33:02] AM: Okay. What about maybe some best or most surprising moments?

[00:33:06] CP: Best moments have been where just observing those lightbulb moments in the clients, seeing the growth or an aha moment where they say something that I said weeks ago and I’m like, “Oh! That really resonated with you.” And just seeing that come up has been so great, and I think has helped with the thought of not knowing anything.

[00:33:33] AM: Yeah. I mean, you can’t see me but I’m nodding along so much, because that moment feels so good.

[00:33:38] CP: Yeah. That had been more obvious in the clients I’ve seen in person as well, just seeing the change in their body language of coming into group and just looking more open, that was huge.

[00:33:54] AM: I can imagine.

[00:33:56] CP: Yeah. Those are definitely been the best moments.

[00:33:59] AM: A great reminder to all of our listeners that sometimes the client will not be able to articulate to you what is different, but you can sense and feel that they are different. You feel different with them and that is how we know that change is happening. Even if their day-to-day, whatever doesn’t look so different. How someone shows up can be transformational.

[00:34:19] CP: Yeah. Just making space for themselves as well. Especially in group where you can see the people that are more reserved, or quiet, or more introvert. Then in a few weeks, just taking more space and observing that change has been huge. I love seeing that.

[00:34:38] AM: Yeah. I love that. Oh! It’s so special. Anything surprising that has happened?

[00:34:45] CP: I’ve already named it, but just realizing that I know more than I think I do.

[00:34:51] AM: A pleasant surprise then.

[00:34:53] CP: A very pleasant surprise, and also the fact that I love therapy. Not that I didn’t think I would, you’ve said, I thought I was going to be. I’m much more drawn to the assessment side of things, and the more logical, and practical side of assessment, but loving therapy and realizing, “Actually, this is what I want to do. Okay. I might still do assessments, but it’s not going to be the bulk of my work.” That’s been pleasantly surprising.

[00:35:24] AM: I love that, and I feel like it was fun to watch that, as a peer to watch, you kind of in the transmission and see you like — I mean, maybe this sounds pompass. It isn’t meant to be pompass, but like kind of coming to me and, “Hey! I feel this thing” and I’m like, “Yes! Come. Come this way. Come to therapy. Like existential work.” Because I feel like that was a class that really — I mean, it was also the last time we saw each other face-to-face in class was half way through that class, this existential psychotherapy class. But seeing you be really stoked about it, I loved it.

[00:35:57] CP: Yeah, I love all that stuff. I found that I really enjoy reading about therapy, listened to therapy related podcast. This is why I’m so stocked of all this. 

[00:36:09] AM: Thank you.

[00:36:10] CP: But I feel like I can consume myself in therapy and not get tired of it. Of course, there are days where I’m like, “Oh! Don’t want to hear about anything therapy related.” It happens. Yeah, it’s so enjoyable, so that’s nice.

[00:36:24] AM: I just think so many people are on that trajectory. I think back to starting my master’s and I didn’t even really understand what a therapist is to be honest.

[00:36:35] CP: Me neither.

[00:36:35] AM: Even though I’ve been in therapy, but I didn’t really understand any of it. Then falling in love with it, and being consumed by it. I’m sure many of our listeners have had that experience, like dipping a toe and then being like, “Oh! I want to swim here. I love this. The water is great. Get in.” That that is such a fun, something I say all the time. It’s that, you cannot go into training as a therapist and not be transformed yourself. I don’t know that’s possible. It is a transformational experience, because in learning how to be with client, we also learn about ourselves. So sometimes the transformation is not life altering daily changes, but it can be more like, “Wow! I love therapy and now I have this passion.” That is transformation and I just think that’s wonderful.

[00:37:24] CP: Yeah. And I just remember first meeting you as well and realizing how passionate about therapy you were. This girl is slightly woo-woo. I am not drinking the Kool-Aid yet,” and then I have drunk the Kool-Aid and I am so there with you.

[00:37:40] AM: I like that we named that, because coming into our cohort was a very interesting experience. I was the only registered clinical counselor and it felt like the only kind of woo-woo person in the group. We have a lot of very science-leaning people, people who are super into assessment, people who had been really interested in the research of a PhD, and then for PsyD alternatively. I did feel a little bit like on a woo-woo island, but it has been fun to see people join me on the island have you learned more about the world and we get out there. Yeah, that’s been fun.

[00:38:12] CP: Yeah, totally. Just as well, even meeting with you, and Jordan and your other therapy friends, wow. I can really see where Alison was coming from.

[00:38:22] AM: Yeah, it’s not just me. There are others. There are others out there.

[00:38:29] CP: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you’re not alone on the island anymore and I’m right there with you.

[00:38:34] AM: Oh! [Inaudible 00:38:34] which is maybe why we chose you for the podcast. There’s a confirmation bias going on. No big deal. That’s a perfect segue, because last question that I want to wrap up with. Here at Edge of the Couch, we very much believe that whether you are in your undergrad degree, first year in a master’s, you’re just about to graduate your doctorate, it doesn’t matter where you are in the learning process. Or even if you never do any of those things that everyone has wisdom and knowledge inside themselves that they can teach to other therapists that other therapists may not readily have. So we want to know what do you think that you bring to therapy that is unique about you and what do you think that you offer to other therapists that they can learn from you?

[00:39:22] CP: Gosh! That is a tough question, in terms of maybe a piece of wisdom that I feel like I’ve learned over the years. She says, “Such an old granny” over here over the last decade. But I’ve noticed I have a few pieces —

[00:39:42] AM: Great. Let’s hear them.

[00:39:43] CP: I’ve noticed that over the past few months where I have grown more in terms of being more present with my clients and just allowing to go with the flow of whatever is coming up in session, is trying to prep less. I feel maybe this was my way of managing the anxieties, and the apprehension and everything else that’s coming up. Those first few weeks of practicum was trying to have everything in order, and prep for whatever could come up. “Okay. No, I know how to deal with this because I’ve prepped this.” But just, I really don’t prep my clients anymore. I just go in and see what happens and see what comes up. I’ve noticed I’m so much more there, I’m in the moment. I feel more what’s going on instead of thinking of what I’m going to say next. That’s one piece of wisdom.

[00:40:38] AM: Love that. Yeah.

[00:40:39] CP: This come more from my personal life, but it works with therapy too is, really not where you are in the world, but it’s really the people that you surround yourself with and the connections that you make. And I think with comes, making sure you connect with your peers, other therapists venting with intent if you’ve had a difficult day. Just finding someone you can speak to about challenging clients, or tough days that you’ve had, or we’ve already named this. But going to your own therapy I think that is so important. That’s a bit cliché, but —

[00:41:17] AM: It’s just real.

[00:41:18] CP: It’s real.

[00:41:19] AM: Yeah. You see it sometimes, right, where therapists have a lot of other friends who are therapists and I don’t think that that’s by accident. Obviously, I have friends who are not therapist, but there is something really special about having a group of people who get it to some degree and who you can go to and be like, “Oh! This happened in my session.” To be honest, the podcast is great for me, because I kind of work in isolation and so it’s exciting to have a space. But you’re right, who you surround yourself with, and that even, we can extrapolate that to clients too. Who client spend time with has a huge impact on how readily they can integrate with their learning, in their sessions and the changes that they can make is huge.

[00:42:00] CP: Yeah. I started the podcast with saying, at the time of my work in the states, I thought that I was just always treading water just to keep my head above sinking. But really, now looking back, I have really fun memories because of the people that I worked with, be it clients or other team members that I had. We only had each other’s back no matter what and I think that’s really important, especially if you’re working like you say in isolation, just having someone that you can lean on.

[00:42:33] AM: Yeah. Building community is huge. I’m not letting you get away without answering this one. What do you think that you bring to therapy for your clients that is unique about you? I know it’s hard, but I want to hear it. I’m forcing it.

[00:42:47] CP: For me, I am never going to play the role of a therapist, or be who I think a therapist should be. I’m just going to show up as me, as Chloe and not filter anything. For me in the past has worked wonders with building a genuine relationship and meaningful relationship with client. And it’s what I have found in working with my own therapy is, I need someone that’s just going to be themselves and isn’t trying to be a therapist, or be who they think a therapis should be, both authenticity and genuineness, the real deal, real you.

[00:43:29] AM: I love that. That is really cool. Thank you for that. Is there anything else that you as we begin to wrap up, you would want to say to other student therapists or anyone who is considering moving away from agency into something like a PsyD program?

[00:43:46] CP: I think I’m unique in the fact that I’ve known I wanted to be a psychologist since I was 15. I don’t think I haven’t really known what a psychologist was, but I knew I wanted to do it.

[00:43:55] AM: Me neither. Me too.

[00:43:58] CP: But for people that are nervous or hesitating whether there is something that they want to do, but they have a bit of an inkling in their stomach. You’ve got to do what you feel in your gut is the right thing to do. There’s never a right time.

[00:44:16] AM: What do you feel when you say that?

[00:44:19] CP: Well, I kept just putting things off and being like, “I’ll just wait until this job ends” or “I’m tired of this” or something comes up and that will be the sign that I’ve got to move and do this. It felt so monumental and, in a way, it was monumental moving across country and doing everything and wrapping up with clients. I have a sense of sometimes if I take a day off, then the whole world is going to fall apart, which isn’t true by the way. With that, yeah, just following your gut instinct and if it’s something that you want to do, then look into it and go for it. 

[00:44:58] AM: Love that. I love that. Thank you so much, Chloe. This has been so fun. It’s been amazing to pick your brain. I love being your peer and being class with you, so thank you for showing up and being yourself always. It sounds like with your clients too, which is incredible. Yeah, thank you.

[00:45:15] CP: Thank you. This has been so fun. I would do this every week.

[OUTRO]

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